Wednesday, December 9, 2015

Conversation, Former Orthodox Convert and a Cradle Orthodox

A will represent the cradle orthodox and B will represent the former convert

A: So where have you been? I have not seen you at church in a long time.

B: Oh I am no longer part of that church my friend, I am done.

A: Wow I am shocked, you were really strong, what happened?

B: What happened? You people are so hell bent on destroying your own church and I don't want to be on a sinking ship, but to be accurate I did not leave the church, the church left me.

A: I am not sure what you mean.

B: You are protestantizing the church and I have warned you all for 8 years about the dangers of this but none of you would listen to me.

A: Protestantizing?

B: Bringing in protestant songs and theology into the church and essentially equating protestantism to Orthodoxy.

A: Well the songs we sing are all theologically accurate so I think you are being a bit overzealous.

B: Would you sing theologically accurate islamic songs, or mormon songs? How about theologically accurate nestorian or arian songs?

A: As long as they are theologically accurate yes.

B: Thats the problem, you just don't get it.

A: Get what, its just praising God.

B: No these are worship songs and we do not worship in a protestant manner. Besides that you are equating the two, protestantism and Orthodoxy and that essentially tells everyone, especially the youth, that there is no difference. So the people see it fine to listen to protestant sermons, which are arguably much better in terms of appealing to the emotions making people think they have been touched in some way. And it tells the kids there is no difference, so they grow up thinking there is no real difference. If there is no real difference and one can get the same result in protestantism as Orthodoxy all while doing far less, then why not? Why fast 210 days out of the year if you can get the same result in protestantism without it? Why do these long services full of lots of standing and kneeling if we can dance around and sing and have fun and get the same result doing so?

A: So this is your main complaint?

B: Yes, and the fact that I am completely marginalized in the church. Given no platform with which to speak but am merely wrote off as some overzealous crazy. Half the time people do not even listen, let alone consider that there might be just a slight chance I am right. Just wrote off.

A: Have you really tried?

B: Well, I have wrote over 11 books on the subject. I have individually talked with people, and every one of them just write me off, doesn't even give my argument and credence whatsoever. I even had a bishop approve my books, and one of them he wrote an introduction to, none of that mattered.

A: But have you spoke about this in church?

B: The only time I did, hardly anyone was there. In fact the only people that showed up were the people that already agreed.

A: So none of the people you wanted to speak to bothered to show up.

B: Exactly. And this is the sort of treatment I get continually. Like I said, I am done, I am not going to be on a sinking ship full of people that think I am crazy for pointing out that its sinking.

A: But I mean you are focusing on differences, don't focus on those. We are all Christian.

B: Because there are fundamental differences that would completely redefine the word Christian.

A: Like?

B: Orthodoxy says you need baptism, Eucharist, the priesthood, and confession to name a few in order to attain salvation. Protestantism rejects these ideas and says that it is by faith alone that we are saved. This is a fundamentally different doctrine that graphically demonstrates that both cannot be correct at the same time. Essentially both beliefs cannot be Christian at the same time since they are diametrically opposed to one another.

A: Are they that opposed?

B: Yes. One rejects the Eucharist as salvific in any way while one says you absolutely need it for salvation. How can those both be Christian doctrines? They are opposed to one another, they cannot both be right at the same time as being different from one another. It makes no sense. Therefore one is Christian and one is not.

A: But thats just one difference.

B: One of many. The whole idea of authority in protestantism is opposed to that of Orthodoxy. In Orthodoxy the clergy is essential and is authoritative, called out by God to serve the people in the church. Protestantism rejects this and instead says that the sole authority is the Bible. Which is a euphemism for the only authority I accept is my own. It places all authority with the individual, which is why there are some 40,000 denominations within protestantism, all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, yet all differ from one another. So again both protestantism in all its thousands of denominations cannot be right at the same time as Orthodoxy, so its either one or the other thousands.

A: I sort of see your point, but I mean protestantism is still Christian so we have to respect it.

B: No we do not have to respect it and no it is not Christian.

A: If its not Christian then what is it?

B: Satanism.

A: Protestants do not worship Satan.

B: I never said that they did.

A: But you said that protestantism is Satanism.

B: Satanism is not worshipping the devil, it is worshipping yourself. Placing yourself above or equal to God.

A: And how exactly do they do this?

B: Well, what is the center of worship in the Orthodox Liturgical worship?

A: The Eucharist.

B: Right, so Christ.

A: Yes exactly.

B: What is the center of worship in the vast majority of protestant denominations?

A: Christ I would assume.

B: But how, there is no Eucharist so how is there Christ to center their "service" around?

A: Its in spirit.

B: So how do you know Christ is there?

A: I guess you feel it.

B: So its about what the individual feels then?

A: Yes I guess so.

B: So the individual is at the center of worship. The music focuses around the individual and the sermon focuses around the individual. The sermon is meant to have a sort of forer effect, speaking to all people and therefore places them at the center of the sermon. That is satanic in that the individual goes to this church to put themselves in place of Christ, where the Eucharist should be, and goes to hear a sermon which speaks to them as opposed to about Christ.

A: I don't know that kinda seems like you are stretching it.

B: Not really, even Anton LaVey loved protestantism as he seen it for being satanic as well.

A: Who is Anton LaVey?

B: The founder of the Church of Satan. So its not just me but the late leader of the Satanic Church agrees as well.

A: I think you are quite overzealous and a bit crazy too (laughing).

B: I think you have your answer as to why I am no longer Coptic, you may not accept it but its true and mark my words, things are going to get worse for the Coptic Church.

A: How so?

B: Well youth are already leaving the church in droves, which is why the leadership did a survey to try and find out why. People protestantizing the church will create a schism, or just more people leaving. It will drive the Eastern Orthodox schism even further as they are against protestantism and protestantizing. And in 50 years, if protestantizing continues, the church will not be recognizable. It will still be there but totally unrecognizable. Now, leave me alone I have no interest in discussing anything with a Copt any longer. I did for eight years and I drove myself mad.

A: I think you are being too legalistic, you have to remember we are all part of the body of Christ.

B: No actually we are not. We are told in scripture that God is not the author of confusion, yet protestantism is comprised of nearly 40,000 differing denominations all based on one book. That is total confusion. To ascribe that to God in any way is to say that God tells everyone different things, that He is some sort of trickster telling people conflicting things.

A: I don't think you understand.

B: You are right, I do not understand you or any other Egyptian who cannot grasp these simple concepts. Its odd, you people seem to think this is the only era in which the church is not under attack. You are totally complacent and that is a real danger. But whatever, it doesn't matter, I don't matter, and my non-Egyptian opinion doesn't matter and never has.

A: What is that supposed to mean, are you saying that Copts are racist?

B: I think many in the church are ethnocentric yes, especially the clergy. So when we speak up about something we are ostracized.

A: Thats not true in the slightest. Maybe in your experience but not as a whole.

B: I personally know several converts who have left the church because of these very things. Not only converts but I know many youth who have left the church. Some have left for the Eastern Orthodox and some have just completely turned their backs on Orthodoxy all together.

A: Sounds like a personal problem, not one brought on by anything else.

B: It is frustrating talking to a people who already think they know everything. Instead of seriously considering anything I am saying people just dismiss it entirely. Most people do not even bother hearing my argument.

A: Again, personal problem.

B: Not really, people do not hear my argument and do not offer an alternative argument that could prove anything I said to be wrong. Its more of "I am smarter you should not disagree with me" attitude. I have had it. I drove myself mad trying to speak to people.

A: Maybe its the way you speak to people. I mean you are not very nice.

B: So should I whip people into submission or publicly insult them?

A: That is ridiculous, nobody should do that.

B: Christ did that. What I am doing is far nicer.

A: But the way you talk to people is not very nice.

B: Thats right because I am generally speaking to a bunch of pharaohs who think that I should kiss their feet and praise them when I talk. I call it how I see it. If you are doing something wrong don't whine like a baby when I point it out. And certainly don't whine that somebody has the audacity to speak to you as an equal.

A: I think we are done with this conversation.

B: Well thank God! Good luck destroying the church your majesty.

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